Kendell Geers and Walter Van Beirendonck

KG: When I was invited by Janus to think about the subject of "Subversion" my first instinct was to run away because its become such a tired theme now and one that has been regurgitated so often that the word has lost all its meaning. One of the primary reasons why it has become so null and void is because of the way the world works today. The system of rapid consumption and fashion subverts and assimilates every threat to it and the status quo. Ive always said is that if you want to destroy something, make it a fashion.

WvB: Thats true because I think also that fashion designers are by nature themselves subversive. They do it in a very natural way. They almost try to break down the things that they liked before. You create something, a kind of beauty, then you start to destroy it again because you want to move on and you want to broaden your boundaries. I have this feeling that I dont want to be subversive but I become subversive because I am forced to be so by the system. Sometimes I do spontaneous things that can even be shocking for some people but there is no other way and I dont only do it just to shock either.

KG: But do you believe its possible to be truly subversive today ? Is it possible through fashion to change the world because in the end the failure of fashion is that it has a six-month life span.

WvB: Its also business. I have a very strange relationship with fashion or with a collection of clothing because one has to sell it, to have it ready in a certain time to be available in the shops. Its then consumed or rejected and then put on sale. It`s really like a very strange circle. But at the same time its the kind of business where you have the possibility of making statements with what you create. Its not visible all the time and often even not visible in the final product that people are consuming but I think definitely that you can be subversive.

KG: In art for better or worse its supposed to last forever - you create something and it goes into the gallery or collection and in theory it is preserved there. So if you are able to be subversive in art, then your subversion should be effective for a very long time and this is the legacy of artists like Courbet, Goya or Picassos Guernica for example. As an artist I think its important to believe that you are able to affect not just the art system but the world outside too. In a way there is less freedom in art but theres more consequence. Fashion has more freedom, but it doesnt last. I am very curious about the fact that we have both used heavy words like "revolution" or "believe" in our work but in very different ways.

WvB: A lot of the things I do are done very spontaneously and then suddenly I realise what is really in them when I am talking with somebody who sees certain things and makes certain conclusions which I probably knew but wasnt completely aware of. Sometimes the conclusions are made by others. It was a very personal decision to call the collection BELIVE because it was a time when everything was starting to collapse. I really needed to still believe in a kind of future. For you the word had another dimension or another content and you made different conclusions out of it. When I see another artists work, or a designer, I am also free to have my own, interpretation and make my own conclusions which are sometimes not connected to the original reason why something was made. When I made the rubber show and covered all the models with latex very spontaneously I wanted to create a certain look but then I realised that it was like trying to subvert the world of supermodels, to react to Aids awareness. All these things were hidden in this new kind of rubber and latex statement.

KG: I am not sure what the difference is between artists or fashion designers today since we are all really just a kind of social barometers. The world has changed and is now more concerned with style than content. Fifty years ago during the Cold War, there was Communism and Capitalism and the world was a very simple place because it was binary and you could choose which side you were on. It was very easy and very precise to be subversive. Today multinational corporations like Benetton, Levis, McDonalds and Nike are making a different kind of War using our desires and recoding our hunting instincts as consumer impulses. Now as a result anything is possible but nothing has consequence. I think that we are living in a moment where there is a complete absence of any real belief systems and a total lack of any spiritual values. We dont believe in anything any more, except ourselves and what we will wear this season.

WvB: But do you think that you have to be subversive, that you have to turn things round and change things?

KG: Yes for as long as I am unhappy with the world that I am living in. Being an artist I have an incredible freedom to say and do things that would get anybody else into a lot of trouble. I literally became an artist to keep out of jail and even today If I wasnt an artist I am sure that I would go back to jail. Art is a place that allows me to do the things I do, whether its throwing a brick through a window or whether its exploding holes in a museum.

WvB: When I started to use the word Terrorist it was before the 11th September and the word had a totally different content. It was rather funny and reacted to it in a very positive way. But from 11th September onwards, the word was so loaded with so many negative meanings that people went crazy and didnt want to buy the clothes any more. They even refused to stock it in the shops. So suddenly everything became different. I think that is interesting because while fashion can function very well at one time it doesnt function at all in another.

KG: In the end, what made the reactions to 11th September so interesting for me was that for the first time in New York, people were suddenly confronted the reality of death. I think that it became the contemporary version of the skull in seventeenth century painting, a memento mori. Death was such a dominant feature of art and culture in the centuries before whereas the affluence and healthy lifestyles of today means that we dont respect death anymore. Somehow I feel that this absence of respect or even fear must be connected to the lack of any real belief systems and to the kinds of art being created today. I think that its very healthy to be confronted by the possibility of our demise and the truth about the fragility of our existence. I think thats why I love work by artists like Felix Gonzalez Torres who in their work expressed a respect for life by respecting death. In my own practice I use sex, violence and humour as subjects and objects in a dialogue between art and life. I dont necessarily want to condone or provoke acts of violence but in the protected context of art I think it can be a very effective way of adjusting the viewers perception of the worlds they live in. Its like a reality cheque. Its a confrontation with something which forces you to reflect upon yourself, so then you become conscious of yourself in space, conscious of your limits, aware of your morality and your value system. Youre confronting what you want, or what youre afraid of, or what you try to have, in another life, what you wish you could be or whatever.

WvB: I think that you have to have a social conscience in fashion. A lot of fashion designers dont have that. They just talk about new designs and new fabrics theyre using and that for them is what fashion is about. I think it is also their right to just go to that point. But for example with the people I am teaching in Antwerp, we try to give them a conscience. Not just social but also ethical so they are aware of what is going on in the world so at least they try to do something which is very personal.

KG: Since the sixties the plastic arts have changed a great deal and today artists are more like the fashion designers you describe because 90% of the work being shown today is just style, just colour, an image. Theres no conscience and theres no content any more. Its just about pictures or sculptures or video installations that are simply visual. In that way I am not surprised by the current infatuation between our 2 worlds. Its very funny that in Milan or Rome and the windows of Gucci or Prada now look more like art installations than fashion displays.

WvB: I have the impression that the names and houses like that need this kind of statement to justify why they ask for that amount of money for the clothes. Its like using a supermodel that gives your label an extravagance which people like. I think that people like that kind of lie. If you a buy a painting you are buying into a little part of that world and that kind of dream and in a similar way that those windows are made to express a kind of dream too.

KG: Its important for me to maintain contact with the world I live in and from the perspective of the pig. I am more influenced and inspired by toilet graffiti or pornography or bar humour because its not defused by politically correct rhetoric or academic disinfectants. Its important that I remind myself that in South Africa alone twenty thousand people are murdered every year, 60 thousand women are raped every year and 10 million people are HIV+. On the other hand its important to be aware as a human being, to feel and have a conscience but as an artist its as important not to lose oneself in moral declarations. Honestly I dont understand what evil is because evil is always changing. To be evil in the sixteenth century is different from now. In fact it even changes in the last few years if you think about how the world constructed the notion of evil before and after the World Trade Centre. I feel that its very important to avoid making universal stereotyped declarations that really are little more than propaganda and to focus instead on subverting peoples expectations to make them more conscious of themselves and of the world that theyre living in.

WvB: My first goal and passion as a fashion designer was to be as democratic as possible and to give people the possibility of buying something at a good price but which was also still saying something. And then you start to realise how hard it is to keep on believing in that kind of system because at a certain point the marketing people come in and others started to say what I could do and what not and suddenly I didnt have any control over my own content any more. That was how I felt when I decided to stop W&LT and restart for myself. Its important when you want to achieve something that you also have the right content. Having made the change I felt that people really appreciated my decision because I left the mainstream and became more underground.
KG: I wanted to have this discussion with you specifically because in my opinion one of the purest and most powerful act of subversion in recent years was when you designed the clothes for the Antwerp garbage collectors. Its about fashion and design, but its also about reality. Its a very interesting intersection between art and life.

WvB: Do you realise that nobody wanted to do it? They asked the younger generation and it ended up with me because nobody dared to do that kind of thing. They were afraid that it would not be taken seriously.

KG: The whole subject of Garbage is especially interesting for me. Its something I refer to very often in my work because you can judge a culture by the where they put their dead and how they deal with their garbage. In Africa there is an entirely different relationship to garbage, especially European garbage, because so often the object, clothes or even food that are thrown out from the big cities like London or Paris end up being recycled in Africa. New meanings are made out of an empty can of Coke or a broken bottle of Heineken beer, something of value is borne out of something which was completely useless to somebody else. Garbage is really pure, its precise.